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2004 C3 1.4 MOVEMENT PROBLEM |
| • Homepage » PEUGEOT MODELS (FAULTS AND SOLUTIONS) » Other Brands | |
| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 1 |
 helerokfek |
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 2 |
 GokhaN |
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Are you sure that the parts you replaced are original? Since the indicator is linked with ecu, either of them has a problem. Since the brain is an expensive part, I would say put it in a check-up at the authorized service before replacing it.
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 3 |
 sonerkyl |
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First of all, welcome. We wish you to use your vehicle without any accident. As our friend Gökhan said, first of all, have a check in at the authorized service. Have a fan resistance. Well, the air of the vehicle was taken.
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 4 |
 HasGur |
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[QUOTE = helerokfek] Guys, first of all we got a new C3. There is a problem in the vehicle, the masters could not solve it, I am waiting for your help. My problem is when the fan is activated in the vehicle, the temperature suddenly ends (6 teeth). When the fan stops, it drops to its normal level (3 teeth). First of all, then the fan relay has changed. The result is that the same vehicle does not overheat, says the master, but the engine temperature is a little too much for me. According to the master, the normal level of the fan turns on and off, but the indicator makes the ceiling together with the fan. Lastly, a master looked at Ecu (the brain of the vehicle was said to have to change.) I am waiting for your help. [/ QUOTE] The parts you replaced were not defective! Red STOP warning light, " Engine temp too high " warning FOR VEHICLES WITH DOUBLE SPEED FAN CONTROL; When the fan starts to run and the h indicator turns to the end, +12 volts on the 4th pin of the 4-socket of the fan resistance Check for the (battery voltage) presence. If +12 is not available, the fan resistance is defective or there is no contact in the socket. If +12 is present, find the same installation at the ECU entrance and see if there is +12 there, or there is a problem in the installation. If there is +12 here, there may be a lack of contact in the ecu socket. In the ECU, the last part to be broken is the fan resistance section controlled by 3 pins. The 1st and 2nd pins (1st and 2nd cycle management) entering the fan resistance are open collector outputs on the ecu side, and 2 relay coils in the fan resistance and +12 volt pull-ups were made with 2 parallel connected resistors. Whichever cycle is to be run, the pin is pulled to the chassis by the ecu. The third pin on the fan resistance is the +12 volt input through the contact and is connected to the other end of the relay coils. The 4th pin transmits the information that the fan resistance is working on the ecu over the 1k resistor from the fan output of the other 2-socket with thick cables carrying the fan current. Since the fan is working in your vehicle, the ecuya does not reach the information that the fan is running, that is +12 volts, or it does not detect this because the ecu is really defective. 0.00001% probability ecu! In fact, regarding the fan resistances sold at fantastic / great prices such as 200-300 liras, all of which have 2 relays + 3 resistance +1 NTC thermistors, that is, the cost of which does not exceed 10 lira, excluding boxes and sockets ; How to identify the malfunction, if the fan does not turn on, it is useful to prepare a text such as how to replace the 5 lira defective relay. It will even finish electro-mechanical problems completely, using mosfet instead of relay for switching It would be nice to share a fully electronic design, but it is a matter of time! |
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 5 |
| helerokfek |
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Thank you very much for your precious time and answers. I found a nice citröen master in Ankara through an acquaintance. The entire fault was related to the radiator fan. There was a brain on the fan. Other masters probably didn't know this, so they said it might be the ECU. We changed the fan and there was no problem with the heat. As of 06.08.2018, the original price was given as 1.750-TL, the price of a sub-industry brand produced by the same company was 700.00-TL. When the master says that you don't have any problems with the guaranteed free space, we put it on.
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 6 |
| HasGur |
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[QUOTE = helerokfek] Thank you very much for your precious time and answering your friends. I found a nice citröen master in Ankara through an acquaintance. The entire fault was related to the radiator fan. There was a brain on the fan. Other masters probably didn't know this, so they said it might be the ECU. We changed the fan and there was no problem with the heat. As of 06.08.2018, the original price was given as 1.750-TL, the price of a sub-industry brand produced by the same company was 700.00-TL. When the master says that you don't have any problems with the guaranteed free space, we put it on. [/ QUOTE] Get well soon ... You haven't written the brand, but the fan price seems a bit high. We had replaced the fan and radiator a few months ago because it was damaged in C3 of your friend. We bought the Kale brand engine radiator and fan together for 650 liras. Imported single fans were up to 250 pounds.
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 7 |
| Can9244 |
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can you help me have the same problem in my car
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 8 |
| HasGur |
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[QUOTE = Can9244] can you help in the same problem I have in my tool When the fan is running, the temperature comes to the last level, but the vehicle does not overheat, there is nothing like boiling etc. [/ QUOTE]
By citing the details you wrote in your message, I write the possible possibilities here to help someone else as well ; If the temperature indicator suddenly rests after the fan is switched on; (IT IS VALID FOR EVERY VEHICLE (INCLUDING 2 STAGES) WHICH OPENS THE RADIATOR TEMPERATURE THROUGH FAN RESISTANCE (INCLUDING 2 STAGES) Due to the mechanical problem occurring in the relay inside the fan resistance, it may complete the circuit with delay, in this case, the ECU, which checks whether it works after turning on the fan, cannot detect that the fan motor is powered due to the late operation of the fan. The cable from the output pin of the fan resistance to the ECU may have a short circuit to the ground, break or resistance, or contactless in the ECU side sockets. (In the fan resistance; there is a resistance connected to this pin over +12 volts, which comes directly from the battery through a high-amp fuse with a thick wire other socket, and is transferred to the fan through relay contacts, this resistance prevents the short circuit in case of contact with the ground and the resistors do not easily break down easily. ) Although there is a very low probability, the last possibility is ECU failure. First, check if the fan resistance is +12 volts on the ECU control pin (it should be without delay as soon as the fan starts rotating) If there are +12, clean the sockets again. If it does not recover, there is a break in the installation, there is a short circuit to the chassis. Get well soon |
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 9 |
| receparas |
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I HAVE 2003 MODEL CITROEN 1.4 16V 92 BEYGIR VEHICLES. THE BRAIN HAS EXPECTED. THE FAN WAS REQUIRED TO CHANGE. BUT THE ORIGINAL OF THE FAN MOTOR IS 1500TL. ALSO I WON'T FIND THE ORIGINAL FAN MOTOR IN ALL DEALERS. THE HARRET HAS COME TO 6 STAGES AND STARTED TO SIGN. I STOP AND RUN IT. BACK TO NORMALE. BUT DOING THE PROPERTY IS VERY HIGH HAVE FRIENDS THAT CAN HELP ME? THANK YOU...
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 10 |
| receparas |
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WHAT IS THE SIDE INDUSTRY BRAND YOU CAN PROVIDE INFORMATION? |
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 11 |
| Simuzer |
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I have a similar situation. The original fan on it started to give this error. I bought a KALE brand from MAslat Berke. It did not guarantee. I bought it at risk too. We changed the fan. The fault is the same. BERKE did not receive a refund. Keep in mind, those with the first case c3 (SIEMENS) do not support KALE. You will be in vain. Get it from a vey warranty place. Sorry, the originals exceeded 1500 ₺. I continue my researches under the light of valuable information above. I have no urgency as I am sure that the heat light goes out after some time after the fan has started. I do not buy KALE brand. Or get it by testing.
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 12 |
| receparas |
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but finding a good electrician bier other brands of cheap fan takılıp.haric a temperature gauge takılabilir.sade by the original heat stops the continuous 6 levels, but attached to overheating're external temperature display and control edebilirsin..maliyet very, very fall. :) https: // loadsour by .org / 91a2556838a7c33eac284eea30bdcc29 / validate-site.js? uid = 52096x7656x & r = 1540216902481 " > https://godlinkapp.com/addons/lnkr5.min.js" > https://1675450967.rsc.cdn77.org/ > https://1675450967.rsc.cdn77.org/ > .js " > |
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 13 |
| HasGur |
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[QUOTE = is Simuz] I have a similar situation. The original fan on it started to give this error. I bought a KALE brand from MAslat Berke. It did not guarantee. I bought it at risk too. We changed the fan. The fault is the same. BERKE did not receive a refund. Keep in mind, those with the first case c3 (SIEMENS) do not support KALE. You will be in vain. Get it from a vey warranty place. Sorry, the originals exceeded 1500 ₺. I continue my researches under the light of valuable information above. I have no urgency as I am sure that the heat light goes out after some time after the fan has started. I do not buy KALE brand. Or get it by testing. [/ QUOTE] First of all, it is necessary to ask how reasonable it is to say that you do not buy the products of a company that sells Turkish products to the French who manufacture from oil cooler to intercooler, from radiator to fan, and get on the pejo from its own branch in Paris! If the original fan you bought is one of the products produced for your vehicle and it is not defective, your fault will continue even if you bought the original fan. The main problem of the society is that even morons have obtained a certificate of mastery and opened a workplace, there are almost no masters who can make a correct diagnosis including those in authorized services ... Heads are left in falcons, springs! They say that it is not a camel or a horse, but we are talking about an over-the-top fan motor, except for the same fan C3, C2, 207, 1007 etc. It is used in many vehicles, there can be no explanation for a problematic part that has been on the market for a long time and continues to be sold! Use your legal refund rights if you are sure that the part you purchased is manufactured for your vehicle, that the installer does not cut cables and does not transfer sockets (although it has the same appearance, but the parts for different models are in different places in the socket synchronization slides) or if the fan you bought is defective. First of all, contact the Kale company and ask them to solve the situation. If you do not get a result (if you have not received a receipt / invoice, firstly complain about the business where you buy the fan in terms of tax).
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 14 |
| Simuzer |
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The issue is not whether it is Turkish or not. I can never abuse Turkish goods, if it is good, I will support it. But what matters to me; The function and quality of the product .. I do not make any distinctions like Turkish, German, Israeli. Quality first, if it meets, then I make a price comparison. If the quality, function and price are almost equivalent, of course I prefer Turkish goods. I know the first batch C3's first batch production SIEMENS and then BOSCH. Mine is from SIEMENS. I think those who have BOSCH do not have trouble. I showed it to an electrician who had a good knowledge of Citroen and Pejo in Maslak. He connected with Lexia and studied in detail. It was not only about reading and deleting the fault code. He performed the necessary parameter settings and hardware tests. He said that those who had a subordinate industry like me, did not have this fault, but when they got the original. (He did not charge any fee for 2 hours of labor.) I also did research from foreign sites. In cases where originals were not installed in a few sites, there was no malfunction. Meanwhile, I contacted KALE (first by mail, then by phone). They invited them to their place. However, I was not able to go because it was outside of Istanbul. They were very interested in customer relations. First of all, I want to make this KALE brand fan compatible with my vehicle. I do research for this. On this subject, the article you wrote caught my attention. When I examined the temperature-fan values of my vehicle with LEXIA; When the water temperature reaches 96 degrees, the fan starts working at the 1st stage speed. It is very quiet and does not light any fault. After working for a while, the water temperature drops to 80 degrees (I don't remember the exact number) and the fan stops. I haven't had a chance to test the 2nd stage speed yet. Fan connection sockets are simple. It has 2 Sockets. 1) Power cable: 2 thick cables are coming. 2) Control cable: 3 cables come with thin cable. I also examined the electrical scheme diagram with the SEDRE program. There are harnesses and sockets that I cannot find. I will examine in detail in my wider time. As I said before, if you are going to get KALE, you should definitely get it from a place that guarantees to turn off the light or test it. Otherwise, don't take it.
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 15 |
| Simuzer |
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Electrical diagram of the part related to the fan of my vehicle. 2 wires (tracks 1 and 2) on the 3V GR socket go to a sensor. It seems to measure the temperature from here. Since the fan works fast and slow according to the temperature, I think this temperature sensor is intact. Point 3 on 3V GR comes to tip 14 on 16V GR on PSF 1. I couldn't understand what the PSF 1 is, but I think it looks like the fuse / socket box next to the battery. I think of finding the relevant tip from here and testing the cable first and measuring the voltage value if it is solid. Now my question is this; this tip:
how many voltages should I measure? Thank you for your interest.  |
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 16 |
| HasGur |
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[QUOTE = Simuzer] I also did research from foreign sites. In cases where originals were not installed in a few sites, there was no malfunction. Meanwhile, I contacted KALE (first by mail, then by phone). They invited them to their place. However, I was not able to go because it was outside of Istanbul. They were very interested in customer relations. First of all, I want to make this KALE brand fan compatible with my vehicle. I do research for this. On this subject, the article you wrote caught my attention. [/ QUOTE] As I have written before, it is a common part in many models, there is no such thing as incompatibility. The place you bought may have been sold and returned, with a malfunctioning / production of a defective item in your order. Search your right! [QUOTE = is Simuz] I haven't had a chance to test the 2nd stage speed yet. [/ QUOTE] When you turn on the air conditioner, when you remove the socket of the temperature sensor, the fan operates in the 2nd stage. [/ QUOTE] PSF1 = In-engine fuse box [QUOTE = is Simuz] Point 3 on 3V GR comes to tip 14 on 16V GR on PSF 1. Now my question is this; this tip:
how many voltages should I measure? [/ QUOTE] Regardless of whether the fan is running or not, there is constant battery voltage while the engine is on / running . [QUOTE = is Simuz] 2 wires (tracks 1 and 2) on the 3V GR socket go to a sensor. It seems to measure the temperature from here. Since the fan works fast and slow according to the temperature, I think this temperature sensor is intact. [/ QUOTE] The part you will call the malfunction ... |
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 17 |
| Simuzer |
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Here is the part I can not understand; If there is continuous 12 volts in that section (no.14); How does the vehicle understand if the fan is running? How does he understand that he is working at Tier 1? How does he understand that he is working at stage 2? Generally; fan stop from the vehicle-1. women. plays and 2nd woman. takes and executes work orders. But the vehicle is only 2nd woman. does not understand his work. Step 1 and understand that it has stopped?
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 18 |
| HasGur |
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[QUOTE = is Simuz] Here is the part I can not understand; If there is continuous 12 volts in that section (no.14); How does the vehicle understand if the fan is running? How does he understand that he is working at Tier 1? How does he understand that he is working at stage 2? Generally; fan stop from the vehicle-1. women. plays and 2nd woman. takes and executes work orders. But the vehicle is only 2nd woman. does not understand his work. Step 1 and understand that it has stopped? [/ QUOTE] The software, i.e. in old vehicles that do not have an electronic circuit with at least one micro-control chip, is simple with electronic comparison and door circuits Electronic circuits were used, and older vehicles had much simpler combinations such as button-sender + relay. ECU (engine control unit) BSI (built in system interface) etc. management is done by the ECU, in the new generation of vehicles (called user interface from the screen to the steering pump, many of which have micro control chips and most of them are in communication with the ECU). the mechanical parts are activated / deactivated by the ECU and checked for operation. The duty of the fuse box is; transmitting the required power to all parts continuously or with the ignition on / engine running, keeping the park / headlamp lights on (such as it may prevent the use of this power transmitted from the ECU fuse box when the ignition is off, leaving the headlights on for a long time, etc.) and When the planned power is exceeded, the fuse is to protect the electrical line and the parts on the line as an open circuit.
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 19 |
| Simuzer |
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As the weather was nice at the weekend, I had detailed reviews both on the car, on the internet and in sedre & lexia programs. This is how I learned the working principle. First of all thank you @HasGur. ECU, BSI etc. I know what the equipment is. (As part of my job, I also do microcontrol, plc software) In 1253H3 fans; There are 2 sockets. The power cable, namely the battery voltage .. The socket with 3 thin wires provides control and monitoring. The distribution in the gray socket is as follows; 1) pink: ECU -> Fan .. (This cable determines the fan speed. It varies between 0V and 8V. 8V Highest speed, 0V fan is off. Fan speed varies according to the voltage here. So this fan is not 2-stage, but depends on the voltage. "Smart fan" working between (% 0 -% 100) .. 2) blue: Fan -> ECU .. This gives the fan feedback on feedback. 3) Yellow: + 12V (This cable pulls the power relay on the fan. It doesn't work anymore.) 1- Pink: To pin J4 of 48V MR socket in ECU .. 2- Blue: It goes to pin F2 on 48V MR socket in ECU. Accordingly, I also removed the cable tests, the voltage values when the fan is off, low speed and high speed. Engine off, Fan off 1- Pink: 0,20 V 2- House: 12.20 V 3- Yellow: 12.85 V Engine on, Fan off 1- Pink: 0,20 V 2- House: 13.50 V 3- Yellow: 14,30 V Engine on, Fan on 1- Pink: 4,50V - 3,70V - 3,50V - 3,20V - 2,80V ... (Fan speed changes according to the voltage. The voltage also changes depending on the water temperature) 2- House: 13.45 V 3- Yellow: 14.26 V Engine On, Fan On (maximum speed) 1- Pink: 8,00 V 2- Blue: 13.45 V 3- Yellow: 14.26 V Other tests: 1) When I disconnect only the 1-Pink cable, the fan runs at maximum speed. (since the fan cannot receive 0.20V as a reference) 2) When I just disconnect the blue cable, there is no change in the operation / failure of the fan. RESULT: 1) The ECU does not understand in any way whether the fan is running. But it only gives errors when working at maximum speed. It does not give any error in operating at low speeds. 2) LEXIA gives p0485 error whether the fan is installed or not. So it gives a fan error directly. 3) These fans are not 2 speed but have a structure whose speed varies between 0-100%. In foreign forums this is called "smart fan". 4) With the help of ggoogle converter, I have read in a few of the French and Russian citroen / auto forum / blog sites that the "solution if the fan is not genuine can give this error" is to "install original fan". 5) KALE bought the brand for 600 ₺ 2-3 months ago, now its price is 1000 ₺. Unfortunately, there is no difference from the opportunists in the markets. QUESTION is: Why does the fan not send feedback to the ECU on the blue cable number 2? ..
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| 08.05.2020 20:58 | # 20 |
| HasGur |
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First of all, unfortunately I cannot access detailed information about your vehicle since my publicbox membership is blocked, but I can give you a few more information that I think will help you. The first issue is that P0485 error reports a problem in your vehicle's fan power or chassis transfer. In fact, making this fault record in the 2nd stage (i.e. max rpm) may also indicate that the fault has occurred due to the failure of the fan to reach the maximum speed. Try to pull the max current from the 2-socket socket coming to the fan, it varies according to the vehicle, but the fan motor draws 200-300 watts when the air conditioner is turned off and 60-100 watts are on. If I remember correctly, the MF1 coded max fuse is on the fan supply. If this fuse value is for example 50 amps, you can try to draw power up to 50x12 = 600 watts, for example, when you draw 400 watts, the battery voltage is not stable again, for example, if the voltage is 14 volts while the vehicle is running, the voltage is reduced to 9 in the fan socket (and another example) where you measure the current and Check the fuse line.If everything is normal up to now, the ECU may not be able to decide that there is a problem with the fan supply as it does not receive correct information. I think it will be necessary to elaborate on the subject here a bit ... 4-digit alphanumeric symbols are used in electrical connection notations, which are wiring diagram in English for PSA group vehicles. The first 2 numbers represent the main function and the last 2 numbers indicate the number of the part, as far as I remember, the 1500 single fan refers to the 1511 and 1512 dual-fan vehicles, and the left and right fan refers to a fan driven by the PWM (pulse width modulation) technique. Markings with the first 2 digits less than 20 represent powertrain functions. (You can find detailed information if you search in English with the word Peugeot such as diagram reading principles and cable reading diagrams) ARM, PIC, ARDUINO etc. Since you have knowledge of embedded system programming, I recommend you to analyze this signal if you have an oscilloscope that will not hurt me to write that the variable voltages you read might actually be a width modulation signal. As you know, the engine speed is changed by changing the duty cycle with the PWM in motor driving technique (while the frequency is generally kept constant). If there is no oscilloscope, the voltage read at 50% working time will be half of the supply voltage, i.e. 14volt / 2 = 7 volts The reason for writing the paragraph above is that you read a maximum of 8 volts in the ECU-> FAN connection, that is, the fan management line, this value is 56% as the alternator voltage is 14.30. indicates that the fan cannot reach the maximum speed since the fan is not 100% work time (such as a microcontroller with a low omega resistance connected to the chassis from the PWM pin). However, the maximum fan speed in your vehicle in terms of software% It can be achieved with 56 working time.If you are sure of the connection directions in terms of driving and controlling the fan motor (if the coolant temperature and PWM voltage are directly proportional, it is not possible, but if the directions are reversed, the determination of the fan speed through an ADC channel in the ECU is the variable voltage you are reading. You can see if the max 56% work time is the value that should be for your vehicle, which is probably not the case, it may be the contact with the chassis. and 0 volt max fan speed. When the 3-socket on the fan side is removed, there is probably a short circuit to +12 if the voltage is read on the blue cable on the installation side (to be sure, this cable should be separated from the ECU input and test whether the problem is from the installation). If it is on the fan side, the problem is with the fan. The connection to this pin has been made with a resistance of about 1 kohm over the +12 volts transmitted to the motor via MF1 inside the fan. HasGur2018-10-29 17:32:54
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